Friday, May 18, 2007

Hue - Afternoon Observations

Brunet announces they will need until Wednesday to finish evidence and will close at a later date, to be chosen and announced. There will be work tomorrow as well.

Cyclist Joseph Papp appears. Because he is being examined by Barnett, we know his testimony will be marginally relevant but highly controversial. Apparantly, Barnett's 15 minutes aren't up.

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Papp came back to cycling after leaving in 1996, in 2001. The peloton speed was faster. his teamates told him to see a doctor to catch up to the speed of the peloton. the doctor told him to take EPO. I get it, cyclists need to dope and they do not just to get by but to win. Nebulous and time wasting, a Barnett feista.

He learned to use testosterone from a Spanish rider to aid recovery and improve performance. He got the testosterone from a doctor in California (BALCO connection? Oh, joy). He actually has some juice here. Maybe we CAN SEE IT. Yes, Barnett puts the Andro-Gel on the screen!!!!

You put the gel on your body and it lasts 4 hours, then it leaves. I certainly wish we could see it demonstrated on someone but I'm afraid that would scare the entire audience. He beat the T/E screen using this method.

A lawyer is here and Papp is looking at him for clues. Lawyer says it is ok for Papp to say the Whistle (?) team in Italy made him dope when he joined them in 2006. Unfortunately, he tested for exogenious testosterone in the Tour of Turkey. He knew he doped and still wanted to fight it. This is the culture of cycling. It is expected.Deny, fight, protect (the Omerta). I'll bet this is completely new to these experienced Arbitrators (not) and I'm getting pretty upset with this stuff. It is useless.

When Papp got nailed, he was abandoned by his team. Why is that a surprise, are they supposed to keep relations with him? Doesn't that violate the WADA Code? He was a cooperative witness in an ongoing federal investigation (which one might that be, I wonder?).

Barnett roles out the Landis brief concerning Power Output data and particularly the PowerTap. you canput out consistant power if you use the testosterone.

Papp doesn't know Landis and has no opinion about this case. Why is he here? Matthew Barnett continues, attempting to poke holes through the argument in the Landis briefs. Papp says testosterone is a substance you use in small quantities to beat the tests. Here's your science, racing fans. Here's your tax dollars at work.

Barnett leads now and tries to get Papp angry. He can't work. He's mad that Landis would deny Papp's reality. I would too. Poor guy. He's lost everything cheating.

Suh cross-examines. Papp is cooperating with the US Attorney in San Diego.Papp does not know if he is a subject of the US Attorney's investigation. Papp does not know Landis, hasn't raced with him, been his teamate or knows any of his teamates. Papp didn't ride in any Tour de France (Just Tour of Turkey). He has not raced in the Tour of California, Tour of Georgia, Paris-Nice and hold no championships. he has raced with the Pittsburgh Power, owned by Franco Harris and KHS prior to 1996.

Suh is examining Papp on EPO use. The clock is ticking down. Papp took EPO from 2001 to 2006 and had been using it until he tested positive. Poor guy, he now has to list all the performance enhancing drugs he took. USADA set him up for this. it is hard to watch. Papp's a pawn in this little power play. I feel bad for him. Suh is asking him to name names and Barnett's objection to that is over-ruled. WADA wants names. Barnett wants the lawyer to get away from an open mike. Barnett hardly cares. Papp has been been used. He's been served.

Landis may run into a roadblock here because Papp may refuse to "name names", probably as a result of attorney's advice and exposure to liable civil remedies. Should he stop, then once again the Panel cannot compel him to continue and then effective cross examination has been terminated. There will be another motion to strike the testimony.

Suh continues. Sando Biacci (?) the brother of the owner of the team gave him the drugs from his back-pack that had a cold pack. Another one bites the dust. He got HGH , insulin, anabolic steroid and cortizone, throid hormone. He got more drugs from South America. He brought them back without FDA authority. This may be drug trafficing. Good Lord! What has Barnett exposed this man to?

I forgot, he took amphetamines too. And other stuff, because it was in Italian. He is not an MD and is not a scientist.

He resolved one anti-doping case yesterday, prior to coming here. But he hasn't resolved any other potential doping case. He gave back no titles, he has none but he agreed to do so.

Barnett's back up. Gets him to admit EPO, cortisone and caffeine use. Barnett goes to his "feelings" from his testosterone use. Again, this could be established by a scientist but then a human being couldn't be sacrificed that way. What a shame. I'm sorry for Mr Papp. The bus is right there, Mr Papp, can you get under it, please?

53 comments:

Anonymous said...

Bill:

Is it even worth it to cross him?

bill hue said...

NOPE

Jeff said...

Ok...

Here is my problem. I think that I believe Floyd. But you listen to this testimony about Testosterone Gel or whatever and that it is supposed to leave the body in four hours or whatever. Then you look at Bonnie DeSimone's report on ESPN.com about which particular samples tested positive (i.e. after every mountain stage) and it begins to make you wonder.

Now am I willing to believe that the lab set the test results up that way? Possible. Am I willing to believe that they(and I mean to include everyone in the peleton here) use this gel to help them recover after a harder mountain stage? Possible as well... I don't know. I can see it both ways here. Before I was squarely on Floyd's side, but I am beginning to doubt a bit here.

bill hue said...

Based on this????
Keep your eye on science.
If you see Barnett examine, cast a critical eye.

smackthewonderclown said...

OMG
This is a waste of time.

Unless Papp has dirct knowlage of Floyd using doping products his being there is pointless.

bill hue said...

Ditto
this is waht Barnett does, though.
USADA lawyer.
Paid by tax dollarst

Sean said...

Definitely keep your eyes focused on the science. I'm still scratching my head in amazement over Ayotte's "If I say it's ok, then it's ok" remark.
If that doesn't tell you the science is flawed then nothin' will.

Anonymous said...

I can't wait to see Mr. Suh go after this guy.....he is definitely not going to hold back....

I expect the first question to be:

Are you a medical doctor?

Anonymous said...

Defense should move for sanctions to compensate for wasting the last hour of our lives.

bamalaw

Burt Friggin' Hoovis said...

What the hell does Papp's testimony have ANYTHING to do with Landis?

What a collosal waste of time...

Anonymous said...

DPF just said this joker got his suspension reduced to 6 months for testifying against Landis

bamalaw

Illinoisfrank said...

Cross examine Joseph Papp:
Mr. Papp, do you work at the LNDD lab?
No.
No further questions.

Anonymous said...

Poor Papp - dancing Monkey to Barnett's organ-grinder.

If I were on the list as a witness for the prosecution, I'd pack my bags and leave, rather than stay and be thrown to the wolves.

Peter said...

Keep focused on science, and remember the definition of "science": anything that get's Landis off the hook!

Anonymous said...

Suh should be burying Papp, but he seems to be letting him off with this line of questioning.. hopefully Suh gets better.

Anonymous said...

You guys are amazing. You truly don't understand the point of Papp being there? Floyd says testosterene isn't helpful, and that no one would take it if they knew they were going to be tested. USADA brings in a cyclist who disputes that, who says it helps, who used it and passed tests. He's not there to dispute what happened at the lab, he's there to dispute general parts of Floyd's opening statement. Don't play stupid.

Anonymous said...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos.php?id=/photos/2006/diaries/papp06/papp0607/depa
Team Whistle massage therapist Maurizio De Pasquale

MWesty said...

I didn't catch who objected to Papp naming the doctor that supplied him with the drugs. Was it the USADA attorneys? That's a bit hypocritical in the search for the truth.

bill hue said...

What about the placebo effect anon 3:03? Papp says his understanding is qualitative. so how do you show that. By science! and that wouldn't help Landis, would it? with EPO, his hemocrat was being checked, and that is quantitative becuase he has discreet numbers to guasge the effect of the use.

bill hue said...

mwesty,
matthew Barnett, in trhe search for truth, objected.

Jim T said...

So all these folks are here to set the record straight by testifying, but they want to pick and choose what they testify about. Interesting.

bill hue said...

I'm just concerned that USADA should have brought in a medical doctor to explain the beneficial and qunttaive benefits of testosterone. Papp just said it made him feel better. Warm tea makes me feel better.

Anonymous said...

You see, Anon3:03, we understand what he is there to establish, he just has no qualifications or credibility to support his testimony. In an actual trial, he would never be allowed on the stand.

bamalaw

Anonymous said...

I like my tea with lemon that makes me feel better, I race better too after a cup of tea with lemon. But don't tell WADA.

Anonymous said...

I want the Truth!!

You cant handle the truth...

LOL!

You're killing me!!

Cheryl from Maryland said...

If Mr. Papp was taking all of this other stuff, how did he know it was the testosterone that improved his performance?

Anonymous said...

Papp had little or nothing quantitative to offer. Did Papp not learn anything from yesterday's hystrionics??? Papp is a much much smaller fish than Greg LeMond. If USADA can calculatingly use and discard someone with the stature of LeMond on a dubious line of testimony, they certainly have had no problem with using this small fish (Papp) and throwing him to the scavengers on the river bank.

FWIW, there are a few ticks (and fish parasites) whom I have more respect for than I do Matthew Barnett.

Jeff from Newark, DE

Burt Friggin' Hoovis said...

Cheryl - I think that was the point Suh was making when he was asking about the other drugs that Joe did...

Anonymous said...

Good questions from Suh on how long Joseph Papp was taking EPO. The entire time! (2001-2006) Odd, how JP can't describe the benefits of EPO on his performance but testosterone in great deal.

The coaching by the US attorneys is shining through!

Anonymous said...

Do you all think anybody in cycling dopes? I mean, other than Hamilton, Basso, Ulrich, Pereiro, etc., etc., etc.

Anonymous said...

Looks like Papp got a sweetheart 6 month suspension deal in return for singing his song here and elsewhere. See thread on Papp @ DPF and Steve from ATL. Thanks bamalaw!
Jeff from Newark, DE

Anonymous said...

Papp is the most believable guy in the entire courtroom.

Anonymous said...

Oh, and Hue is getting more and more biased - sad.

Anonymous said...

.....but Papp says no. Curious!
Jeff from Newark, DE

NSF said...

Okay, in the idiot contest, Papp is right up there with our buddy Will. He's looking at longer suspensions and jail time, and he didn't seem to have any idea about the fact that his own testimony just established the elements of a criminal offense. No immunity, no nothing. That's pretty cold of USADA.

Anonymous said...

from cyclingnews.com Joe Papp's blog/diary from early 2006:

"I raced the Vuelta this year for Italian team Partizan-Whistle, which is the international designation for the grande fondo squad Team Whistle that is captained by ex-Saeco professional Simone Biasci."

I have heard of this guy. Was an average pro - worker bee not star. Moved over to the Gran Fondo scene in Italy (gran fondos are fairly long well-organized rides - if you're fast you race them, if you're recreational you just ride them - L'Etape du Tour could be classed as one, also called Randonees) in the late 90s because you could make good money (there was also no doping controls). He was signed by the ParkPre distributor in Tuscany - can't remember dist.s name right now - was the guy who first signed Paola Pezzo to ride mtbs and was early Italian dist for Shimano. Biasci originally rode GFs solo but they picked up maybe 1 or 2 other guys. It was purely a marketing move to promote the ParkPre brand (a US brand that faded here but the Italian dist. kept it on officially or unofficially I'm not sure.)

bill hue said...

Look , anon 3:49, I'm calling you out.
where is the bias?

Anonymous said...

It's worth noting that Landis has Dr. Amory from the University of Washington, an expert on testosterone, on his witness list. I understand he has actually done work for USADA.

~ Cub

bill hue said...

I suspected you wouldn't respond. Anybody can say anything, anonymously, I suppose. So be it.

Nancy Toby of Lanterne Rouge Blog said...

Yeah, if Papp's performance was so freaking enhanced, why didn't he ever ride with the Big Boys?

What a load of bull. They probably gave the poor guy sterile saline and he thought it was the Good Stuff.

Anonymous said...

i used to beat Papp's from time to time, and all i ever did was DHEA, ephedra and smoked dope, i beat him clean too. At least he was taking some good shit. I mean i wanna know he was junked TF up...who cares about a 1% gel...1 percent - ooooh scary...

Anonymous said...

Re: Bill's comment on the placebo effect. Please see my comment recently added to prior post.

Sounds like Papp's attorney should be disbarred.
Pcrosby

Anonymous said...

Huh? There's more at stake here than convincing the arbitrators. Papp's testimony reveals - to the public - the omerta of the cycling community and the effects - real or imagined - that cyclists think testosterone has.

I haven't read this blog enough to know who the original poster is, but his comments make me wonder whether he isn't more than a bit naive.

Anonymous said...

Some info:
Simone Biasci - Papp's team manager - is currently suspended - indefinitely I believe. (statement at http://www.udace.it/cad.php - you'll recognize Raimondas Rumsas on that list too). Also has history of possession/trafficking - NAS raid reported at 2002 Maratona (Gran Fondo) Dolimiti (http://www.sportpro-archivio.it/doping/2002/06.htm#BIASCI). It's in Italian, otherwise google "Biasci doping" and have google translate. Caught with veritable pharmucopia - EPO, hgH, insulin, etc report states that with the influx of ex-pros to the previously purely amateur Gran Fondo's also came their doping habits. And although many knew it went on, no one would denounce it.

tbv@trustbut.com said...

Cool. The one name he named has already gone down. How convenient.

Too bad he confessed under oath to a littany of non-AAF doping offenses and trafficking.

I believe technically, USADA has no choice but to make cases out on him and give him a life ban. They're not supposed to have the kind of discretion that would let him off for confessed multiple offenses. If they go lightly, then WADA ought to appeal to CAS, because he is a damned dirty doper, confessed.

They want first offenses up to four years too.

TBV

Anonymous said...

If every damned dirty doper gets 4 years, they might as well cancel every race this year, cause no one is gonna be riding.

Anonymous said...

Do you all think anybody in cycling dopes? I mean, other than Hamilton, Basso, Ulrich, Pereiro, etc., etc., etc.

Of course not. Aside from the few who test positive due to lab mistakes, none of the dope. ;)

The only difference between what Papp has said and what Jesus Manzano has said is that Papp was using a ridiculously small amount of gear compared to the Manzano. Check out Hamilton's doping schedule somtime to see how the big boys do it.

Papp's testimony confirms just how rampant doping is. throught the pros If the low end teams are still involved with doping their riders, what do you think the big teams are doing?

bill hue said...

I'm here working 12 hours a day on my vacation and someone calls me naive because I won't say Landis doped because Papp did. Oh, I forgot, everyone does. So prosecute everyone and leave a memo for Lemond. He was clean. I'm not being sarcastic.
Bill

Theresa said...

Bill, I think I love you! This is great work, I wouldn't know anything about the hearing if it wasn't for you and TbV sacrificing all this time ! And add strbk to that list, too! Why aren't some of these guys leaving their names, if they are so smart? Although I think anon 5:16pm, should stay that way, because he might get in trouble!:)

Hey, and thanks to the anon that knows all the cycling history!

Anonymous said...

Dick Pound of WADA announced today that warm tea has been added to the banned substance list. According to Mr. Pound WADA did extensive research and found that athletes using warm tea out performed athletes not using warm tea. When questioned, Mr. Pound admitted that the study, on two subjects, was not peer reviewed or published. However, he said, you can't argue with the 100% results.

L'Equip reported, thru anonymous source, that one of the athletes was quoted as saying "I ride better after a warm cup of tea with lemon".

Dick Pound could not verify at this point if lemon was going to be included. "We are still researching the effects of how lemon increases the advantage of tea". Mr. Pound then went on to say that they had a "foolproof" test for tea and that even incompetent and under trained lab techs would be able to get the results they were looking for.

Anonymous said...

If all the dopers were banned, do you think Eddy Mercks would win this year's TdF, or would Greg LeMond beat him?

Anonymous said...

Sadly I believe Eddy Merckx tested positive twice in his career. On one occasion he said it was a fix (no counter analysis, conspiracy etc - sound familiar?). Self-perpetuating, eh?

Dr. B said...

I understand why people on this site would take issue with using a cyclist to rebut Floyd's claim that testosterone doesn't help cyclists win races. In theory a scientist would be better. But I guarantee you that if and when such a scientist appears, many of you will also say that scientists can't really testify adequately about the realities of pro cycling, because no research has been done at this level. Here's my question: Where's the criticism of Floyd for making ridiculous claims like "Testosterone has no effect on performance"? Floyd's group has conducted themselves like thugs and their lawyers have mixed serious inquiry on the science with shameless, bogus arguments. Especially if you believe Landis innocent, as many of you seem to do, this should appall you.