Hearing - Mon Meier-Augenstein - I

Pretty relaxed start this morning. No seating problems, and relaxed security. Suh is finishing his coffee McLaren comes in first with Campbell and Botre. McLaren is last in.

Landis's expert, Dr. Wolfram Meier-Augenstein, has the look of a man who belongs behind an instrument. He's wearing a tie and jacket, but underneath is wearing baggy jeans

BRUNET: Welcome everyone.

Appearances.

Time: Landis 6.9 hrs; 13.5 USADA.

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Dr. Wolfram Meier-Augenstein

DIRECT BY SUH.

q: are you employed?
a:: Queens college, Belfast.

[more]

q: area of expertise.
a: irms analyis

q: facilities?
a: have almost all instruments, except massspec solutions.

q: how many do you have?
a: 14.

q: familiar with all?
a: a few i'm not that familiar with a few.

q: familiar with principles of IRMS?
a: yes.

q: how?
a: what I've been doing since 1992, development of methods and instrumentation?

q: familiar with principles of chromatography?
a: longer than irms.

q: background...
a: i'm not sure how it relates, degrees from Heidelberg, South Africa

[ he talks fast with a heavy accent, this could be difficult! ]

q: phd?
a: Heidelberg.

q: briefly describe research, contract and grants in summary form...
a: grants on forensic identification of drugs, and others.

q: wada?
a: no.

q: have you done any?
a: I was invited to workshops, went to workshop in 2004, and referee on Brenna grant.

q: forensic casework?
a: yes.

q: organizations on forensic?
a: steering committee on forensic IRMS, working on rules for ISO '7025 for IRMS.

[ another bunch ]

q: is good chromatography important?
a: critical.

q: how?
a: good peaks, baseline separated, lack of assymmetry

[ slide, bedrock principals of good GC ]

[ refs to papers by Bowers (of usada) and Brenna, earlier witness ]

[ many papers, eye chart ]

q: Are there problems when peaks are close together, curved baselines, ...
a: yes, you get a wrong isotopic value.

a: if a compound goes through a column, there is a difference in the isotopes, the c13 elutes first, and you can overestimate the c13; as soon as there is overlap, you have a composite that confuses things.

[ slide showing separated gaussian peaks ]

q: Read Aquilera's conclusiong on IRMS for doping control?
a: agree.

[ ref ex 40 USADA 1221 ]

q: example of bad?

[ overlap in tails and head, and minor peak in shoulder. ]

a: software won't resolve, if you integrate manually, you'll get richer c13 and more negative c12, than truth.

q: good vs poor

comparing 474 F1 A sample chormato vs. Aquilera paper.

q: tailing peaks cause innaccuracy?

"overlapping peaks detected are systemativcally distorted"

[ have got to get a copy of this slide show! ]

YOUNG: want papers and exhibit numbers.

MCLAREN: need it now?

YOUNG: need before cross.

q: why are there two chromatograms in this process. is there gc/ms and irms component?
a: yes, LNDD uses two separate instruments. the gc/ms is used for peak identification, the irms quantifies the irms. The irms doesn't identify the peak. At the irms, you are combusted to CO2, and there is no other distinction. Must analyse in parallel.

q: one step at a time. gc/ms identifies what you are looking at.
a: yes.

q: irms step doesn't tell you what you are looking at.
a: yes.

q: but the gc/ms doesn't quantify isotope values.
a: yes.

q: how do you relate identified peaks in one machine to the other.
a: you use retention times, using relative retention times from an internal standard.

q: did you review Brenna's testimony?
a: yes.

q: he said the irms relies on the gcms times.
a: yes.

q: the method is all right?
a: yes.

q: in this case were the peaks properly identified by relative retention time according to the wada TD?
a: no.

q: we'll get to that in detail.

YOUNG: wants a copy of the paper.

RECESS 15.