tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post7370529809312469287..comments2023-10-06T03:21:26.130-07:00Comments on trust but verify: Larry: When a "hearing" isn'tDBrowerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17718913310467614671noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-57604629526556985622008-07-03T07:33:00.000-07:002008-07-03T07:33:00.000-07:00Larry,I'd argue that students (and their parents) ...Larry,<BR/><BR/>I'd argue that students (and their parents) have many more rights (or at least avenues of recourse) in dealing with an unfair decision than athletes under WADA jurisdiction. The power of the school principal is checked to some degree by others on his/her staff, the PTA, the school board, the state department of education, local politicians, the media, and the community at large. Any of these can be petitioned to bring pressure on the principal to reverse a decision. If the principal's decision involves a violation of some basic civil right, such as racial discrimination, there is the option of a court suit. There might be the opportunity for the student to have his/her side of the story inserted into the academic record. Finally, if a choice of schools is available, one can simply leave the school and enroll in another with a fairer principal.<BR/><BR/>But WADA athletes just don't have these same options. There aren't many checks on WADA's power. There's no opportunity to pick up and leave for a rival athletic league not under WADA's control. So WADA does what it wants and gets away with it.<BR/><BR/>You write that you "believe that any time you ask three people to sit down and resolve a dispute, there is a built-in potential for fairness and justice." I'd reply that in WADA arbitration and CAS cases this is true only when the issue is very simple, the ISL violation obvious, and the overturning or mitigation of the sanction does not undermine in any way WADA's labs, its image, or the fundamentals of its code. It also helps if the case involves a lesser known, low profile athlete. Anything more than this and the hearing become a formality with the outcome preordained from the beginning.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your analysis on this and all the other topics you've covered. I appreciate reading your views.robohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16384766928825410965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-61942999606210531942008-07-02T11:36:00.000-07:002008-07-02T11:36:00.000-07:00I am really struggling with the jurisdictional iss...I am really struggling with the jurisdictional issues, and want to explore that a little more. From what I can tell, the first piece of that is the original contract athletes are generally required to enter into with their NGB. In the case of pro cycling, this USA Cycling. It seems cyclists are then "subject to this farcical system" from that point on.<BR/><BR/>But are there other statutes involved? Perhaps international treaties? Contracts have various defenses, and some are simply void as against public policy. I'd really like to start the analysis for what Floyd's legal team might be weighing as options. <BR/><BR/>Of course, these are separate from Floyd's personal options. <BR/><BR/>I support Floyd and his family's choices on that matter unconditionally. To those ends, I sure would like to know how to help. I'll make a donation toward that $100k foolishness, and grind my teeth knowing it eventually goes in the pocket of Richard Young and USADA. But Floyd stood up for me as an athlete, and I'd like to somehow say thank you.<BR/><BR/>This is separate from the pending legal analysis. Larry, Judge Hue (and others); where do we start? I want a real court to weigh in on the use of science in the anti-doping movement. The ethical mis-treatment of vulnerable, human athletes is not something we can turn a blind eye to.<BR/><BR/>Larry: as to the substantive issues of due process, that issue (as you know!) will be very interesting and very complex. Goss predates Matthews v. Eldridge (that cites Goldberg v Kelly). This is horribly complex. Plus, it is possible the state action link here is tenuous - is USA Cycling really "the state?" I'm not sure. Could a court that was asked to enter judgment on the arbitration award be asked to review the contract as against public policy as overreaching? As a contract of adhesion? Or a myriad of other contract defenses?<BR/><BR/>Now I know what those guys feel when they line up for Stage 1. Man, this road looks long....but if the team can launch someone on a break...and no one chases....Eightzerohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02326301095221867947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-34263459147691400482008-07-02T10:49:00.000-07:002008-07-02T10:49:00.000-07:00Great post. Re: Goss: In 1971 or so, another stude...Great post. Re: Goss: In 1971 or so, another student at my suburban Chicago high school reported to the principal that I had used a Carlin-ite profanity in referring to the school attendance officer. I was already skating on thin ice because of my short temper and tendency to tell teachers off. On this occasion, though, I had been upset but hadn't cursed. At the end of the school day, the principal collared me and told me that he had heard about what I had said and that I was subject to expulsion for it. He told me to tell my parents to be at the school at 7 p.m. that very night to discuss the matter. They did, and they were told I would, indeed, by expelled. My parents, who were not confrontational people and believed me when I told them that I hadn't said what I was accused of saying, prevailed upon the principal and assistant principal to ask other students and one adult employee who had been present -- not a friend of mine among them -- if they had heard the offensive utterance. The school agreed to do that and told us to be back at 9 the next morning. <BR/><BR/>When we arrived in the principal's conference room, the face of the assistant principal (and chief prosecutor) was red. He had talked to the half-dozen people who had been in the office. Half of them didn't even remember me being there. Of the remainder, only my accuser remembered me saying anything at all, much less cursing anyone. So: the expulsion was tabled, and I was given a "suspended" two-day suspension instead and told to go to class. <BR/><BR/>So you're right: the hearing itself can be important, even if the cards are dealt funny sometimes. But the process is only really meaningful if someone is open to weighing evidence with an open mind and actually does that.Dan Brekkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03261150572253464576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-91895921918695777632008-07-02T09:24:00.000-07:002008-07-02T09:24:00.000-07:00Larry you are doing some excellent "processing" of...Larry you are doing some excellent "processing" of this decision. So are a lot of other people. To whatever degree we frequent readers of TBV are a "community," I feel like a bum, not having contributed anything. I have just been too busy, and haven't even been able to read the stupid thing yet. And now am leaving on an internet free vacation for two weeks, so I won't be able to contribute anything for a while.<BR/><BR/>Also, honestly, this decision just makes me sad - sad for Floyd and Amber, and all those whose lives this really affects directly, and newly angry - angry that this type of system was allowed to be created in the first place without most people realizing how one sided the process really is. I suppose I'll get to the point of "processing" it, but I'm just not there yet.<BR/><BR/>So, my first dumb reaction stands: bummer, this sucks.<BR/><BR/>syiUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03544321514310799725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-82947466070551831862008-07-02T08:51:00.000-07:002008-07-02T08:51:00.000-07:00Larry and the lawyers,A request: I would enjoy re...Larry and the lawyers,<BR/><BR/>A request: I would enjoy reading a discussion of the appeal process into the court system. What could be appealed, the basis for appeal, governing statues, which courts have jurisdiction, and the extent of jurisdiction.<BR/><BR/>Thank-you for all you've done and written.bkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14793875407108888258noreply@blogger.com