tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post6767326985159492486..comments2023-10-06T03:21:26.130-07:00Comments on trust but verify: Friday RoundupDBrowerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17718913310467614671noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-3406873542351394782007-05-27T17:57:00.000-07:002007-05-27T17:57:00.000-07:00All the money is on the side of the drug cheats, s...All the money is on the side of the drug cheats, sponsors, TV media, life science and pharmaceutical firms.<BR/><BR/>WADA has no money.<BR/><BR/>UCI has very little testing money and does not even test for exogenous testsoterone unless the cheat overdoses. eg: 11:1<BR/><BR/>Besides, the fans and sponsors demand excitement and will deny the cheating anyway.<BR/><BR/>Confirmation of the obvious (they all dope) is hardly necessary.<BR/><BR/>Soon Landis will be DQed and we will move on with another lying drug cheat. No big deal at all.<BR/><BR/>Score another win for USADA!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-19102555596909261182007-05-26T21:17:00.000-07:002007-05-26T21:17:00.000-07:00----- Original Message ----- From: Davis Straub To...----- Original Message ----- <BR/>From: Davis Straub <BR/>To: Hersh, Phillip <BR/>Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 12:13 AM<BR/>Subject: Re: Can you name one science reporter who was assigned to the Landis hearing?<BR/><BR/><BR/>Hi Phil,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your kind reply.<BR/><BR/>Like you, I am smart enough to ask questions, science questions, having graduated in Physics from UCSC. I am taking nothing away from your reporting and commentary when I point out that something else is missing.<BR/><BR/>I certainly agree with you that the lay public would not be interested in the fine scientific points of drug testing. And that is exactly why the lay public would have been greatly served by a genuine science reporter who had a deep background in these issues explaining the science in understandable terms to them. Not all would be interested, but a great many would.<BR/><BR/>I believe that it is to the great discredit of our national media that apparently not one of them sent a trained science reporter to what I think may turn out to be a pivotal hearing (where was Ira Flatow from NPR?). For the first time we got a glimpse of the inner workings of a now discredited WADA accredited laboratory. We also got to see that dark side of WADA and the USADA.<BR/><BR/>Our society appears to take great interest in whether athletes take drugs or not. Personally this is not as important to me as many other issues. But, given this general interest, it seems only reasonable that we would benefit from having some knowledgeable guides as to exactly how these athletes are being tested and judged. That we were denied the benefit of such a reasoned and thoughtful analysis based on the actual science is an indictment of our social institutions and our general level of cultural dysfunction.<BR/><BR/>Thanks again for your time and thoughts.<BR/><BR/>BTW, Ira's show on Friday was really poor given what had happened in the previous week.<BR/><BR/>Davis Straub<BR/>http://ozreport.com<BR/>http://ozreport.com/worldrecordholder.php<BR/>http://ozreport.com/location.php<BR/>On the road, USA<BR/><BR/>----- Original Message ----- <BR/>From: Hersh, Phillip <BR/>To: Davis Straub <BR/>Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 11:41 AM<BR/>Subject: RE: Can you name one science reporter who was assigned to the Landis hearing?<BR/><BR/><BR/>I do not have a strong background in chemistry, but I am smart enough to ask questions about what I do not understand. And a lengthy debate on fine scientic points is not likely to take place in any general interest publication. <BR/><BR/>The crux of the Landis argument -- bad science, sloppy bureaucracy -- was clear to me. If he wins on those merits, that is all my readership needs to know. The debate over whether the science is good or bad, beyond what the arbitrators decide, is best left for blogs, scientific journals and academic fora. The larger question of the credibility of doping control undoubtedly will not be resolved by this case, no matter what the outcome.<BR/><BR/>PH<BR/> <BR/><BR/><BR/>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR/>From: Davis Straub [mailto:davis@davisstraub.com]<BR/>Sent: Sat 5/26/2007 9:32 AM<BR/>To: Hersh, Phillip<BR/>Subject: Can you name one science reporter who was assigned to the Landis hearing?<BR/><BR/><BR/>This hearing was the first time that the public had access to the inner workings of WADA and the drug testing procedures used by one of their certified laboratories. Given how much ink is spilled on this issue of drug taking and drug testing don't you think it would have been prudent for some newspaper, perhaps like the Chicago Tribune, to at least send a knowledgeable science reporter to hearing to judge the veracity of the testimony?<BR/><BR/>I suspect that very few reporters have a strong background in chemistry. How about you?<BR/><BR/>It's fine to hear the "human interest" side of the story, and the condemnations of drug taking, but where is the science investigation?<BR/><BR/>Davis Straub<BR/>http://ozreport.com<BR/>http://ozreport.com/worldrecordholder.php<BR/>http://ozreport.com/location.php<BR/>On the road, USAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-37014248398181483402007-05-26T08:02:00.000-07:002007-05-26T08:02:00.000-07:00Dear Ken:I understand your points, especially elim...Dear Ken:<BR/><BR/>I understand your points, especially eliminating true PEDs from hair products, but I would be loathe to see WADA produce a "PED cookbook" with guidelines as to what works. <BR/><BR/>I do think that WADA and the sports associations should promote health and performance as well as fairness, truth, beauty, etc. to their roster of why one should not use PEDs. Why -- all drugs have side effects, many of which can depress performance. The more drugs one takes, the more likely there are additional or more intense side effects from the drugs interacting with each other. This includes aspirin or other OTC drugs. Drug interaction can include eliminating any beneficial effect of the drug. <BR/><BR/>The bottom line is that a drug is a poison given in a small enough dose that one is less likely to die from the drug than from the disease. That's why they are only prescribed if one is ILL. Messing around with something that can kill you even under a doctor's care is a horrible idea.<BR/><BR/>Finally, while the term of art is PED for performance enhancing, I think it is important for fans NOT to assume that when a rider confesses to PED use that the PED actually helped them improve and that superior riders must have also doped. I also think we fans should try to take each case individually, if only for proper respect for the rider as a human being. It will be difficult to have this frame of reference in these times, especially with the confessions of Mr. Rijs and the entire Telekom team, but I'm going to try.Cheryl from Marylandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09410608438374264074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-34154772577035302162007-05-25T20:54:00.000-07:002007-05-25T20:54:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-69461408290939000662007-05-25T20:20:00.000-07:002007-05-25T20:20:00.000-07:00Just read Bob Ford's article and it got me thinkin...Just read Bob Ford's article and it got me thinking. The arbs may have already decided against Floyd 2-1, but I don't see how they can just let LNDD off the hook. If they decide against Floyd, they've pretty much told WADA labs that they can do whatever they want (Muppet Labs might as well apply for WADA accreditation).<BR/><BR/>How can the arbs find against Floyd and simultaneously condemn LNDD? Or can they?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-66558655060428875612007-05-25T19:19:00.000-07:002007-05-25T19:19:00.000-07:00Cheryl from Maryland,You bring up some very good p...Cheryl from Maryland,<BR/><BR/>You bring up some very good points about the side effects of PEDs. This is why I think any otherwise legitimate pharmaceutical that is added to the banned drug list, whether because it is a PED or masking agent, should only be added to the list if true peer reviewed (e.g. not peer reviewed by the standards defined in these hearings) studies show that the pharmaceutical is truly a significant PED or masking agent. <BR/><BR/>Having athletes banned because the hair growth medication they were using <EM>MIGHT</EM> be a masking agent is ridiculous. <BR/><BR/>There has got to be some kind of sanity to this.Ken (EnvironmentalChemistry.com)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07434682840236999820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-75803120636934035582007-05-25T19:01:00.000-07:002007-05-25T19:01:00.000-07:00Re: Joe Papp's cocktail of drugs & drug use in the...Re: Joe Papp's cocktail of drugs & drug use in the peleton in general. I was talking to my husband, who works for the FDA, about the cocktail, and he said he was shocked Mr. Papp could get out of bed in the morning with all of that stuff in his system. <BR/><BR/>He then proceeded to look up the side effects of EPO in his reference material for me. Did you know common side effects of EPO include fatigue, weakness of muscles, and sleepiness? So, one may have more red blood cells, but the rest of the body can be toast. <BR/><BR/>This is not to say that cyclists don't use these substances or believe in their effectiveness, but it is quite possible that use of PEDs, except for blood transfusions, degrades performance if the cyclist suffers from side effects rather than enhances it. So just because a cyclist outperforms an admitted PED user doesn't mean he doped. It might mean that he is clean. <BR/><BR/>Mr. Zabel might have been correct in his statement that he stopped EPO after a week because he felt bad. That might not be an excuse to mitigate his PED use.Cheryl from Marylandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09410608438374264074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-75840241194355788892007-05-25T15:36:00.000-07:002007-05-25T15:36:00.000-07:00Due process versus media hype.Media hype always pr...Due process versus media hype.<BR/><BR/>Media hype always prevails. Landis demanded an open hearing and he got what he deserved, black tie and all.<BR/><BR/>If a cheat can still sell product--they are protected.<BR/><BR/>OJ Simpson out<BR/>Kobe Bryant in<BR/><BR/>Shawne Merriman in<BR/>Ricky Williams out<BR/><BR/>CSC/ Bjarne Riis still in?<BR/>Ivan Basso out<BR/><BR/>Due process does not exist in real life. Too expensive, Judges, attorneys, consultants, paid experts, all feeding off a dysfunctaional system marketed by perry mason reruns. Fairness is what is sold to the public.<BR/><BR/>In the end---only commercial appearances matter.<BR/><BR/>Landis appears as damaged goods.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-81433048248232819592007-05-25T15:14:00.000-07:002007-05-25T15:14:00.000-07:00TBV, per your request I added the qualifying words...TBV, per your request I added the qualifying words "unofficial non-literal" to the comment about full transcripts being on the TBV site in the blog article you cite above. I also added a link to the video archive.<BR/><BR/><B>As a point of disclosure in regards to the two Landis articles we published:</B><BR/><BR/>People should note that our two articles on the Landis hearings were written by different individuals. I wrote the first post and enjoy watching the Tour de France on TV each year (last year I was cheering for George Hincapie figuring that if anyone deserved to win he did after being so loyal to Lance all those years).<BR/><BR/>Roberta Barbalace (<A HREF="http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/bobbie.html" REL="nofollow">Bio</A>) wrote the second article. She became involved because I asked her to help edit my first Landis article. She was pretty appalled by the CoC issues she was seeing being disclosed in the testimony by prosecution wittinesses and subsequently agreed to write this article.<BR/><BR/>As she stated, Roberta is not a cycling enthusiast and would have no clue what a green jersey means in the TDF. What Roberta does care about is due process and sound scientific procedures. Given how many times she has been drug tested in her life and how many times she has had others drug tested, an unbroken CoC and proper lab procedures is a very near and dear thing to her.Ken (EnvironmentalChemistry.com)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07434682840236999820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-72521503251686305612007-05-25T14:25:00.000-07:002007-05-25T14:25:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-88676747303144533672007-05-25T14:20:00.000-07:002007-05-25T14:20:00.000-07:00RIP Floyd's reputationRIP LNDD's reputationRIP USA...RIP Floyd's reputation<BR/>RIP LNDD's reputation<BR/>RIP USADA's reputation<BR/>RIP WADA's reputation<BR/>RIP Dick Pound<BR/><BR/><BR/>Everyone's a loser !. What an outcome. Couldn't give a f**k about the rest of the casualties, they brought it upon themselves. Floyd should have won here. No question about it, the sooner he gets back into pro racing, the sooner cycling can move on. The authorities who set up WADA in the first place should be going back to the drawing board and trying to figure how to redefine WADA without the inclusion of a dick as WADA's head. The performance of every aspect of the anti-doping authorities in this case was unprofessional, embarrassing, corrupt and biased. That beats a clean athlete every time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-40518954277146511112007-05-25T14:18:00.000-07:002007-05-25T14:18:00.000-07:00I wonder how much the articles that "cycling is fi...I wonder how much the articles that "cycling is filthy" in the US press is due to the fact the cycling is not considered to be a traditional US sport. Every 4 years there is a lot of soccer bashing in the US press, who looks with glee for things like the Zanideen (sp?) head-butt. Most US sports writers/TV commentators know little about cycling (or soccer) and hence are not comfortable with them. It was so easier pre Greg, when you could safely ignore the TdF. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps Marc could enlighten us on how Europeans feel about cycling at this point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-87414142757512680782007-05-25T13:24:00.000-07:002007-05-25T13:24:00.000-07:00Anon 10:19,Does anyone realize who Joe Papp is? He...Anon 10:19,<BR/><BR/>Does anyone realize who Joe Papp is? He was labled during the arbitration as a "mid-level pro". I'm insulted as a professional cyclist to think this guy is considered to be anywhere close to a professional. It's ridiculous to think his testimony has any validity to anyone let alone the arbitration panel. Apparently Papp was trying to race on everything he could get his hands on (T,epo,hgh,etc.) and still he could barely finish a respectable race let alone get a result anyone cared about. Basically the only thing Papp was being used for was to justify using testosterone made a difference. Of course it made a difference for him, he sucked!Imagine how slow this guy was riding his bike around without any pharmaceutical help.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-62841509721745373012007-05-25T13:22:00.000-07:002007-05-25T13:22:00.000-07:00PCrosby,First off, anyone who wants to read Bob Fo...PCrosby,<BR/><BR/>First off, anyone who wants to read Bob Ford's article, click <A HREF="http://www.philly.com/inquirer/columnists/bob_ford/20070523_Bob_Ford___Landis_facing_a_stacked_deck_at_doping_hearing.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>.<BR/><BR/>That's a good idea, setting up a clearinghouse site for people who want to get involved in pushing for change. Something to mull over. <BR/><BR/>In the meantime, there's the <A HREF="http://www.floydfairnessfund.org/get-involved.php" REL="nofollow">Get Involved</A> page at the FFF.<BR/><BR/>- Rantdaniel m (a/k/a Rant)https://www.blogger.com/profile/16126545986721397012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-73509713131215839502007-05-25T12:31:00.000-07:002007-05-25T12:31:00.000-07:00My local paper had an opinion piece by Bob Ford a ...My local paper had an opinion piece by Bob Ford a Philadelphia Inquirer sports columnist that was surprisingly well informed - I suspect that he read here. I don't know how to provide a link. He closes saying that he thinks the outcome was foreordained, 2-1 against Landis and closes with the following:<BR/><BR/>"Does he deserve it? Maybe, but it is impossible to say for sure.<BR/><BR/>'Even cheaters desereve a fair hearing,' one witness told the arbitrators.<BR/><BR/>Floyd Landis isn't getting one, though. He has been caught in the sealous hunt for witches, and in inernational sports, unlike in major league baseball, that requires only a pointey hat and some bad luck."<BR/><BR/>To Rant and Gatordawg: Someon with some web skills needs to craft a site that can be used by the "little" people in the many affected sports to assist in putting pressure on natinoal sport federations to take the issue of change seriously and also to identify one or a few federal legislators who can be focused on to bring about the change that is needed. <BR/><BR/>Depending on how you feel, this may be an overstatement: All it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing. The internet is proving to be a new, effective tool for organizing and channeling outrage. I would love to see a congressional hearing probe into how LNDD got accredited to run the tests while its equipment was visibly defectively installed (i.e. the failure to remove the lfting rings from the magnet). <BR/><BR/>I do not have the skills, the TBV team has to be burnt to the waterline, but I am sure that they would make their library of resources available. The postings alone are valuable.<BR/><BR/>LNDD may be embarassed enough to clean up its act - but to whose standards? And there are other changes needed, some simple (test a and b samples at different labs, establish what a positive lab result is by (real) peer review) and others are tougher (burdens of proof, rules of evidence and procedure, independence of arbiters and their "independent experts").<BR/><BR/>Don't let this be a momentary splash that sends a single, small ripple across the view of those who need to deal with the issues. Sorry for the rant,<BR/>pcrosbyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-17904551059590655952007-05-25T12:14:00.000-07:002007-05-25T12:14:00.000-07:00Want some insight as to what interests the general...Want some insight as to what interests the general public? Scroll all the way down to the bottom of the TBV page and look at the chart. The spike in visitors [and trolls] occurred in response to the WG/GL drama. Science? "Booorrring." Facts? They can perceive their <I>own</I> facts, thankyouverymuch. The origin of the problems being addressed? No time to give that any attention. There are tie-colors to describe and interpret.<BR/><BR/>The facts aren't captivating to casual observers - they want FIRE, MURDER, SEX, CAR CHASES. Like children, most people want the icing, not the cake. <BR/><BR/>Some people take great pleasure in seeing somebody hit rock bottom because, *whew* once again, it's not them up there on the stand. "<B>That</B> guy is a jerk."<BR/><BR/><BR/>I can't say how grateful I am to have a font of actual legitimate and informed description [rather than inflammatory and sensationalized opinion] in TBV.<BR/><BR/>Thanks again for all the hard work. I only hope that, years from now, the absolute truth will come to light and the TBV crew will likely be the only ones to report it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-91134871301783902892007-05-25T11:09:00.000-07:002007-05-25T11:09:00.000-07:00Has Botre ever been the independent expert before?...Has Botre ever been the independent expert before?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-44090372365654104572007-05-25T10:44:00.000-07:002007-05-25T10:44:00.000-07:00Anon 10:27Isn't the reason cycling seems singled o...Anon 10:27<BR/><BR/>Isn't the reason cycling seems singled out, I would add Track. While I haven't done research on ALL cases, yet these are primarily Individual Sports, with NO strong league/team structure. NO entity to protect/deflect the sport's franchise ala, FIFA, NFL, MLB, NBA.<BR/><BR/>Regards,Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-11595464659113195212007-05-25T10:35:00.000-07:002007-05-25T10:35:00.000-07:00Anon 9:56,I guess to me, the question is the testo...Anon 9:56,<BR/><BR/>I guess to me, the question is the testosterone Landis is accused of doping with.<BR/><BR/>I don't think any of the current admissions relate to testosterone. It's questionable benefit for the supposed purpose used. If I, an out of shape accountant know that, wouldn't the top athletes know as well. If the accusation was for a substance which is KNOWN beneficial, I might start with a different opinion.<BR/><BR/>It appears the testing by LNDD was only 1 step above using darts. <BR/><BR/>The steroid cases (ala Baseball), seem to have more direct benefits for the supposed purpose. <BR/><BR/>The problem with the system IMHO, is that it seems quite easy to have confirmed/refuted with an independent test at a different lab, IF WADA/USADA had wanted a definitive answer. Since this easy, cost saving process could have been used. Why Not? Who is being protected?<BR/><BR/>LNDD has been in the eye of the questionable testing storm for awhile, which makes me curious why their paperwork is still lax (Do they KNOW the system will protect them?). I don't remember hearing similar complaints about UCLA (for instance). Doesn't mean there aren't any, I just never heard any.<BR/><BR/>Too many questions, few if any good answers.<BR/><BR/>Regards,Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-38691015792446267832007-05-25T10:27:00.000-07:002007-05-25T10:27:00.000-07:00Nothing upsets me more then the ingnorance of an a...Nothing upsets me more then the ingnorance of an aritcle like in the Philadelphia Inquirer by Phil Sheridan saying, "...cycling is a filthy sport." Do people really live in such a secluded world to think cycling is the only sport on drugs? It blows my mind people can be in such denial to single out cycling in the world of doped up sports. It almost feels personal like Mr. Sheridan has a hard time riding a bike. I'm sure doping or "cheating" makes people angry and they want to see justice but is it any better for the organization accusing cheating to be cheating themselves?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-28971179725490549852007-05-25T10:19:00.000-07:002007-05-25T10:19:00.000-07:00If someone thought T would help, they'd take it. ...If someone thought T would help, they'd take it. It's been posted here before about how much T has been used by cyclists. Also, Papp I believe said it did help.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-29723279926450354532007-05-25T10:04:00.000-07:002007-05-25T10:04:00.000-07:00Remember what Dr Amory said, in his opinion EPO wo...Remember what Dr Amory said, in his opinion EPO would help a cyclist...testosterone wouldn't.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-39811759595465983162007-05-25T09:56:00.000-07:002007-05-25T09:56:00.000-07:00With the Riis admission, it gets harder and harder...With the Riis admission, it gets harder and harder to believe Landis, not that I believed him to begin with. If people want to have this arbitration a referendum on strict testing procedures, that's one thing, and I can appreciate that. But to truly believe Landis didn't dope, and that he's otherwise some hero, I don't really understand.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-44698529377416741872007-05-25T09:47:00.000-07:002007-05-25T09:47:00.000-07:00I ment "HARD" work! Riding in Washington StateI ment "HARD" work! <BR/>Riding in Washington StateAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-72832566557255433552007-05-25T09:45:00.000-07:002007-05-25T09:45:00.000-07:00Judge Hue - Although the arbitration hearing is co...Judge Hue - Although the arbitration hearing is completed do you think the recent press on Telekom doping will weigh on the Landis outcome? It’s been pointed out we are all humans and there are elements of this case the arbitrators must consider verse press and public option. But certainly these recent admonitions could play into this. It must create additional strain on all parties involved in the Landis case. Thanks for your had work here. Riding in Washington StateAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com