tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post6699047205620921613..comments2023-10-06T03:21:26.130-07:00Comments on trust but verify: After all that, what do we think?DBrowerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17718913310467614671noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-30255366712421671502009-01-06T11:55:00.000-08:002009-01-06T11:55:00.000-08:00All I can say is, it was a great Ride, TBV. Thank...All I can say is, it was a great Ride, TBV. Thank you and your family for all the you put in to this effort of understanding the truth about the anti-doping movement.mreaganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11760884955336219583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-40937046472127601402009-01-06T10:09:00.000-08:002009-01-06T10:09:00.000-08:00TBV, Strbuk, Bill, Marc and to the rest of you who...TBV, Strbuk, Bill, Marc and to the rest of you who have contributed - many, many, many thanks from the great unwashed for the information, points of view and service you have provided.<BR/><BR/>Floyd - go out and kick butt and show them Stage 17 was not chemically induced.<BR/><BR/>While it would have been preferable/nice to have a definitive ruling and closure on this matter, it is what it is.<BR/><BR/>Let's go ride!mnlaveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01197972123996592482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-64203970267528157482009-01-05T14:53:00.000-08:002009-01-05T14:53:00.000-08:00I won't repeat my final comments at the bottom of ...I won't repeat my final comments at the bottom of Judge Hue's last post. But I will say again a big thank you to TBV. Without TBV, I would have departed this process with complete disillusionment. The excellent exposure, education and scrutiny TBV provided left me with a very decent consolation: hope that something good will ultimately come out of this case and TBV's efforts.cleduchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00508777467696500689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-51549585592923274522009-01-03T08:20:00.000-08:002009-01-03T08:20:00.000-08:00DB, Great post and perspective. I can't help but r...DB,<BR/> Great post and perspective.<BR/><BR/> I can't help but recount, giving the survival by winnowing of Dr MA, and originally observed directly by Dr Davis and as reflected in the documentation.....<BR/><BR/> That the data we have spent so much time and energy analyzing is distorted to an unknown degree and is, as Dr MA hammers the point, useless.<BR/><BR/> Having said that, the data can be relied on to have not shown any abnormal presence of anything at all. It may indicate an abnormal level or ration of somethings otherwise normal.<BR/><BR/> The amount of dilution or widening of normal error bands can not be determined. That the dilution should be strongly considered in any look at the data can not be over emphasized.<BR/><BR/> In the one corner we have Dr MA and Dr Davis saying the data is scientifically bunk. Both of these scientists are heavyweights on the topic. In the other we have all who have participated in analyzing the bunk. I think it was Dr MA who so aptly applied the adage 'garbage in garbage out'.<BR/><BR/> Any how, it has been a great ride at Floyd's expense and I have learned much and as with str, I too come away heartened by the people who have been in the peloton.<BR/><BR/> DB,<BR/> I started in IT in 1980 as a professional, started as a CE and SE in mainframes, moving into AIX as and IT specialist.<BR/> My 'bread and butter, is in your area but I am tied to one 24x7 account with four HA clusters as main servers to computing farm and workstations. The commute time and work time and trying to keep some ride time in has kept me limited in following all things tbv. My lifelong technical hobbies and technical jobs including maintaining complex mainframes and I/O machinery (high speed check sorters for example) in my hardware days and calibrating various electronic devices in years prior gave me, I felt, a unique novice view into the world of the isoprime, sorry I couldn't perform the diligence that Larry did on all things pertinent.<BR/><BR/> What a wonderful online peloton this race has had at tbv! Or should I call it a team?<BR/><BR/> Friends, lets ride.<BR/><BR/>RussRusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00725508645675310008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-24373493571409288292009-01-01T19:20:00.000-08:002009-01-01T19:20:00.000-08:00TBV,One of the things that's always bothered me ab...TBV,<BR/><BR/>One of the things that's always bothered me about the Landis case is, in fact, your scenario #2. There was a result that's been interpreted as evidence of doping, but does that actually mean Landis doped?<BR/><BR/>There's Tom Fine's conjecture: Perhaps it was the alcohol. And bolstering that possibility are the Scott MacLeod case and the Gareth Turnbull case, both of whom had consumed alcohol within 24 hours of a doping test that came up positive for testosterone. And both were ultimately vindicated. <BR/><BR/>Looking at the big picture, Tom's conjecture might no be so far off the mark, really. But to many in the mainstream media and to others it sounds a bit "kooky" or like a "crackpot idea." Problem is, no one in a position of authority really bothered to explore what he suggested in any substantive way vis-a-vis Floyd's case. Also interesting to note is that the anti-doping tests don't seem to look for the presence of substances like alcohol which might have an impact on the outcome, as noted in the MacLeod decision.<BR/><BR/>There's also the possibility that perhaps something Landis ate during the Tour might have affected the results. Steroids and other drugs find their way into many forms of meat, for example. Could they cause positive test results if the concentrations were high enough? How much would one have to consume before such a test could occur? <BR/><BR/>Lance Armstrong in his seven-straight Tour victory days was well known for bringing his own food and food preparers along during his races. And the USOC went so far as to ship their own food to Beijing because of concerns over the steroid levels in various meats in China. That seems to suggest that a "food-borne" scenario isn't such a crackpot idea, either.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps Landis came into contact with something else that caused the strange results. We don't know.<BR/><BR/>That's the most unsatisfying part of the story. Ultimately, no one really knows what happened. Floyd proclaimed loudly that he didn't do it. What if he's telling the truth? What if something else caused the results?<BR/><BR/>We don't even know what the ARDB actually did (or didn't) consider in deciding to recommend doping charges against Landis. What we do know is that the fax Landis received informing him of their decision was dated three days before their meeting. It's an odd bit of information that's never been explained. Was it a simple mistake? Or was the die cast even before the meeting was held? Did they even review anything (other than a rather nifty looking rubber stamp)?<BR/><BR/>So much is unknown. But what does appear to be known is that there is no real "search for truth" -- at least not by USADA. That, to me, is the biggest failing of the system. That Landis doped is certainly one explanation for the findings. But there are other possible -- and perhaps even more likely -- explanations. And because of the polarization of the case, those possibilities appear to never have been considered.<BR/><BR/>If scenario #2 is really what happened, then the punishment inflicted on Landis has been severe, and very likely unwarranted. But the case is over and it's time to move on. Floyd will be racing again, and that's as it should be.<BR/><BR/>We should be on the roadsides and sidelines cheering him on. He's served his time in Hell, it's time he be welcomed back into the fold.<BR/><BR/>What Floyd's case, and what TBV (the site) did was to expose the weaknesses and foibles of a system run amok. If any positive changes come to the anti-doping system, it will be because of Landis' decision to have his hearing open to the public, and because there was a site where all the information could be found.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for creating Trust but Verify, Mr. TBV. If you hadn't done so, someone would have needed to invent it.<BR/><BR/>Your epitaph on the case is a darn fine analysis of what happened from start to finish.<BR/><BR/>Well done. You and Paula and Marc and Ali and Bill and all the other contributors here have created a lasting work that's a testament to the power of "citizen journalism."<BR/><BR/>Tom,<BR/><BR/>You're no crackpot, my friend. You're someone who's willing to look at the whole picture and see that there are possible explanations beyond that which is being spoon-fed to the media and being repeated far and wide. The conventional wisdom is often wrong. And you're wise enough to know that.<BR/><BR/>Ali,<BR/><BR/>Best of luck to you in all your future endeavours. It's been a pleasure reading your comments here and elsewhere. If you're ever in my neck of the woods, I'd be honored to buy you a drink.<BR/><BR/>Best wishes to everyone, it's been a very interesting ride.daniel m (a/k/a Rant)https://www.blogger.com/profile/16126545986721397012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-50674294329579328032009-01-01T15:28:00.000-08:002009-01-01T15:28:00.000-08:00I leave grudgingly because I feel there is unfinis...I leave grudgingly because I feel there is unfinished business.<BR/><BR/>Having recently learned more of the goings-on of that very insular profession of racing in Europe, my views are changing and I'm starting to drift more toward the candid Dr Baker thoughts.<BR/><BR/>For the record, I think Floyd Landis was royally screwed.<BR/><BR/>Following on from Mr Fine's comments regarding being taken more seriously, I believe I can trump that many times over. I've been a complete ass on more occaisions than I care to mention, but I can honestly say that I wouldn't do it differently if given the opportunity. It must be the Celtic gene (let's blame it on something other than me, OK ?).<BR/><BR/>Either way, I'm moving on now. Not because I want to, but because I need to. New job, big new challenges, feeling very positive for the future (giving my liver a break, etc). <BR/><BR/>I genuinely wish all the best to everyone here.<BR/><BR/>Goodbye.<BR/><BR/>AlasdairAlihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00786387057717601356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-51701506797893879202009-01-01T06:16:00.000-08:002009-01-01T06:16:00.000-08:00Thom, you're no crackpot. You're just another geni...Thom, you're no crackpot. You're just another genius who sees that the molecular emperor has no clothes.<BR/><BR/>Amen, hombre. Amen to you all, and I hope we can rendezvous at some point, for some celebration, somewhere, after something significant (and good) happens in the life of the athlete we watched.whareaglehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15824055294445501713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-64459160556145156752008-12-31T23:29:00.000-08:002008-12-31T23:29:00.000-08:00Thanks for that TBV.For the record, I prefer the l...Thanks for that TBV.<BR/><BR/>For the record, I prefer the label of "crackpot" over "kook". But I'll accept either one. It's crossed my mind that Arnie and his own particular point of view is exactly what locked Floyd into the path he pursued.<BR/><BR/>But that's crap. It's useless to judge any decision based on it's outcome. You judge decisions based on what you knew, and should have known. With that in mind, if I were the guy that had to make that call, I would have made the same choice as Arnie, despite being the leading (sole?) proponent of the alcohol theory. The testing WAS botched, WAS horribly documented, WAS procedurally ambiguous. In a fair system, this defense would have and should have worked, and it seemed like the best bet.<BR/><BR/>But thankfully, I didn't have the job. Being a self-appointed crackpot was relatively risk-free. My only regret was that I should have tried to be taken more seriously. At this point, I've resigned myself to probably never knowing if my pet theory was right.<BR/><BR/>People like Arnie, and Wolfram M-A, and Amory, these people put their best foot forward at considerable professional risk. In my mind, they deserve the most praise for doing the right thing.<BR/><BR/>And maybe Bill Hue can be put in that group too. As for his dark theories, I waver between agreeing with him and thinking he's gone to far. In my more recent cynicism, I usually find myself agreeing with him. I think this coming season will show us if he's right or not. Lance has already been tested like a dozen times, and he hasn't even raced yet. The same may be true of Floyd, but he's apparently in a shut-up-and-ride mode. If that's true, good for him.<BR/><BR/>So...<BR/><BR/>I've been wondering what I should say about the end here. For reasons I can't explain, one phrase pops up over and over again. Since I never found anything better to say, I'll just say this:<BR/><BR/>So long, and thanks for all the fish.<BR/><BR/>tomThomas A. Finehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15734341507092908270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31819641.post-5868558789468068312008-12-31T22:25:00.000-08:002008-12-31T22:25:00.000-08:00That'll do, TBV. That'll do.Thank you.syiSwimMik...That'll do, TBV. That'll do.<BR/><BR/>Thank you.<BR/><BR/>syi<BR/><BR/>SwimMikeSwim.comMike Solberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11784753552166129987noreply@blogger.com